DISCLAIMER: I’m not a medical healthcare professional. Please read our disclaimers page here)
With the obvious exception for those who have legitimate medical reasons, I believe that making vaccinations mandatory for COVID-19, in the current climate, can be ethically justified.
Now, to be clear, there’s a difference between mandatory vaccinations – where certain penalties are levied on you for not complying – versus compulsory vaccinations – where someone forcibly jams a needle in your arm.
My argument is for mandatory vaccinations, not compulsory vaccinations.
In ordinary times I would have said that education and encouraging people through other incentives is the best course of action – especially in the long run. And we certainly shouldn’t stop trying to do that, but we don’t live in ordinary times do we?
We live in extraordinary times.
Refusing to get vaccinated is like drink-driving.
I believe that getting vaccinated is the covid equivalent of wearing a seatbelt. It doesn’t mean that you won’t get in a car accident – it doesn’t mean you won’t die as a result either – but it’ll give you a MUCH GREATER chance of survival if you do.
To give you some numbers, this summer approximately 100,000 people died from covid in America. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention identified just 2,900 people who were vaccinated among those 100,000. During the same time period vaccination rates surpassed 50%.
Another study from the C.D.C. that was published in September found that after Delta became the dominant variant, unvaccinated people were more than 10 times as likely to die of the virus as the vaccinated were. (Check out his article for more details.)
Now, it would be one thing if refusing to get vaccinated only put your own life at greater risk. But that’s not the case. If you kill yourself because you refuse to wear a seatbelt, it probably won’t cost others their lives. But if you catch covid because you refuse to get vaccinated, it may well cost others theirs. In this respect refusing to get vaccinated is more like drink-driving.
I would argue not getting vaccinate is worse than refusing to wear a seatbelt for this reason.
And those who refuse to get vaccinated are making it worse for everybody else. Transmissions, hospitalisations, severe illness and death are all higher among the non-vaccinated. The chances of mutations are also higher in the unvaccinated. And so, of course, we have renewed waves and lockdown measures.
But if the plan is to stop everyone from driving every time we have one of these wave, why are we letting drunk-drivers off the hook?
Now, I agree that stopping people from driving before the seatbelt was invented was the right move. But now that seatbelt has been invented? Now that it’s been well tested for safety standards? Now that we’ve had the time to administer them to the majority of the population? (I believe this is true for most affluent nations)
Has the time not come to make them law?
Article 2 of the Human Rights Act in the United Kingdom is the right to life. It states “the Government should take appropriate measures to safeguard life by making laws to protect you and, in some circumstances, by taking steps to protect you if your life is at risk.”
Mandating vaccinations would achieve exactly that.
A zero-crash policy where seatbelts are optional
The main argument against is one of personal liberty. The argument that making them mandatory would be an infringement of one’s rights.
It’s worth pointing out, the same argument was made by those who opposed the introduction of seatbelt laws in the 1980’s.
But what about our collective rights? What about our collective freedoms?
Strictly speaking, any law that tells you to do or not do something is an infringement of one’s personal liberties. But there’s a reason why driving under the influence isn’t allowed by law. That’s because it puts other people’s lives at risk.
There is no greater infringement to one’s freedoms and rights than death.
Ironically, the only individual choice that people have left here in Hong Kong, when it comes to fighting COVID-19, is whether we choose to get vaccinated or not. With this odd exception, we have some of the strictest measures in place anywhere in the world.
I almost wonder if that’s not deliberate?
The pandemic has provided the perfect opportunity to enact some extremely shady laws here. It’s allowed the government to put the shutters up at the same time. The government have said they won’t open up without higher vaccination rates. But those rates – like elsewhere in the world – are starting to plateau.
It seems to me, without making vaccinations mandatory, we are stuck in limbo.
We are imprisoned.
It’s disheartening to know that many of my fellow prisoners are happy with this arrangement. They say, “Why would I wear a seatbelt if there are no accidents here?”
But the only way to maintain what is, effectively, a zero-crash policy where seatbelts are optional, is to severely restrict the liberties of the aircrew body. The very drivers those prisoners depend on.
Of course, vaccinations are mandatory for aircrew. I got mine as soon as I could back in March this year. I just had my third booster shot. I naively thought this would lead to greater freedoms. Sadly, the restrictions imposed upon us have only gotten worse.
Much worse.
Recently over 200 people – made up of crew plus their families – were thrown into a government isolation camp after three pilots tested positive on return from Germany. These were the first pilot’s to test positive this year following 140,000 negative test results.
Despite this exemplary record, the government decided to impose a host of new restrictions on top of our existing ones. To the point where it’s now getting very hard to have a life outside of our own apartments.
I might add that trio who tested positive were later fired for what was deemed a “serious breach of protocol.”
When you refuse to take responsibility for your freedoms you lose them.
I don’t bring this up for a vote of sympathy, but to give you an idea what things are like when your freedoms really have been impinged.
But also, to make a point about equality.
Mandates are already in place in much of the world. They’re nothing new. Many frontline workers – medical care professional and the like – have already been mandated. I am part of that group.
Although I do object to many other draconian measures my Government have placed on the aircrew here, mandating vaccinations is not one of them. They don’t want aircrew to be drinking and driving on the job. I felt that was more than fair.
But, so long as our misery persists, so long as a significant proportion of the vulnerable remain unvaccinated, so long as we are made to wait for that to happen, I feel like the aircrew and other frontline staff have been extremely hard done by. I don’t believe it is fair, in light of the circumstance, in light of a pandemic where we are all drivers, that the mandate should only apply to frontline workers.
I think those who protest their right not to get vaccinated would do well to remember all those frontline staff – those worst affected by this thing, those worst affected by those who refuse to get vaccinated, those who are are simply getting on with it and trying to save lives – who have had already had mandates issued against them.
In my eyes, in the name of equality, a mandate that is applied to the whole population is fair. One that is only issued to those groups who are worst affected isn’t.
I’ll make one final point: Getting vaccinated is a vote for freedom.
If you ask me, those protesting the right to not get vaccinated aren’t fighting for freedom. They’re fighting for a false idea of what they believe freedom means.
Many people mistake freedom for this idea that they can do whatever they like. But the paradox of freedom is that you must take responsibility for it, otherwise you lose it.
If that choice only relates to your own freedoms that’s one thing, but when they effect everybody else’s, we’ve got problems.
If you drive without a seatbelt you risk the consequences, but if you drive while under the influence… I think we can all agree that’s unacceptable.
We should try to protect as many lives as we possibly can. But, in the name of freedom, I believe we must protect the right to drive as well.
That choice should be given to those willing to do so responsibly. But for those who refuse, perhaps they deserve to have their licenses revoked?
What do you think?
***
You can find AP2’s personal blog here at: https://clear-air-turbulence.com
You can also find him on Medium at: https://anxiouspilot2.medium.com
Or on Twitter at: @AnxiousPilot
My thoughts remain still the same about mandating vaccines. I shared my own post about it awhile back, and though I forgot to mention a few things (I am to tired to also share those thoughts now, I may update the post or make another in the future) but yeah if you are interested, here was my take on it.
https://myauthenticmind88.wordpress.com/2021/08/27/covid-19-rant-because-i-finally-had-to-say-something/
Sorry I didn’t want to write the same long thought process here. lol
I’ll be sure to have a read. Thank you for sharing the link. It’s a topic I suspect many probably have a lot of thoughts about. I thought I’d bring it up because it looks like mandating vaccinations is on the cards in many places. Wishing you well 🙏
It is on the cards in may places yes, including they are threatening it at my own work place, but has been suspended for now. We had the meeting about it though and then like the next day our safety company or whatever you would call it suspended it. lol. So though it is in the cards here in the states, it is along with many lawsuits against it. I see at most companies and businesses run by the government maybe being able to enforce it, but doubtful for it being able to be forced on private companies. The unfortunate thing is the company I work for is private, they want to enforce it regardless of how it ends up in courts etc. Many people are against it and I don’t blame them including my main/big manager at my work and he may leave if they enforce it. He has been my favorite boss I have ever worked for at any company, especially the company we work at now. He has made such a positive difference in what once had so many issues and risk of failing. He completely turned it around. Though that is not a reason to be against the mandate, but all I gotta say is if he leaves, I will give a new manager a chance but if he sucks I am out too and so will many others on our team. They are saying if my company enforces it so many people are going to quit(right now we have a hard enough time getting people to work) places in our company will close down. Great for the economy right? I think the government wants to be very careful with how they want to play the mandate game.
Here is the thing I STRONGLY encourage the vaccine, I got the vaccine and will get any boosters needed. Not just for my own safety, but unless Americans are actually going to do let’s say a revolution, you are not going to win the freedom game. If it is not mandates, you need the vaccine to fly, cross borders etc. I got it because I am a Canadian living in the USA as an immigrant and I want to be able to visit Canada with no vaccine hold ups or because I was too stubborn to get it. On the other side, I have regrets about getting the vaccine too.
I see BOTH sides of the spectrum, and it is your body your choice. If the argument alone is well you put other people at risk. Just about everyone at my work had COVID and said it felt like a bad cold for a few days and came back to work two weeks later completely fine. No lasting symptoms, BUT they are all either young or healthy. The only one who had it bad was a coworker of mine who has asthma, but said anytime he gets sick with things like a chest cold or anything related to that, he gets really sick because of his asthma. So guess what? He even got sick out of the pandemic and it sucked every time for him. Elderly, obese, diabetic people etc people with serious underlining health problems are at risk when they get sick with anything. The numbers of death in the USA is so high because either they are semi made up and also because the obese population is extremely high. I am not trying to be rude. I am not saying let the weak or the sick die off…but when you are unhealthy you are always at risk and it is not just from COVID. The flu shot isn’t mandated and no company or business has ever asked me if I had my polio vaccine. ETC.
You cannot legislate unpredictability. It won’t ever work and it is silly to try. You can put down as many laws against drinking and driving, or the latest texting and driving, but it still happens so every time we jump in our cars and turn that key, we risk our lives. That no matter how safe of a driver you are, it doesn’t guarantee everyone else is. With the numbers of accidents etc we have enough proof to fight to ban all drivers licenses and mandate buses etc, but we don’t. Society did not act this way with AIDS. The more we enforce things like this the closer we get to communism. (and believe me for me to even say that word takes a lot because I normally laugh when people say it saying they understand nothing about how socialism or communism actually works) but here if they mandate it they may actually have an argument out of it. 😛
So my feelings are rather complexed. I see both sides of it. I hope people get vaccinated, but at the end of the day all I can do is be as safe as I can be for myself and my family etc. It does not guarantee me free of death though. If it is not COVID, I am exposed to other awful germs too because people are just plain out disgusting. If it is not COVID, every time I drive my car I take a chance. So yes I feel strongly against mandating it, but I also understand why people would be for the mandate.
Thank you for stopping by and reading it, I basically just repeated it anyways and added a few key points too. lol.
Take care. 🙂
You make a lot of good points. I think, in retrospect, I maybe came on a bit strong with this one. I didn’t realise just how emotive a subject it is for some. Still, my feeling is they are coming. The government is a bit of a bind either way. So long as mandates are required for the most vulnerable/frontline workers I feel like the president has already been set. In may ways it’s only fair to them. But I think you’re right that if they are to be applied, its got to be very carefully managed. I would make the punishments soft, and actually add some sort of incentive for getting it – aside from being able to travel/visit restaurants etc. Of course vaccines aren’t mandated for things like the flu – covid is different in that we are in the middle of a pandemic and it still got to pass through a significant portion of the population yet. And so long as a significant proportion of the healthy population refuses to get one… Of course vaccinations cannot stop Covid and it is here to stay. Mandated for the interim is simply about mitigating the damage. One of the big problems I see is resistance to it be greater as a result. It could back fire. That is something I hadn’t considered till now. Thank you for adding to the debate. I appreciate your long thoughtful reply. Wishing you well. Take care 🙏
I think your opinion is cute.
Thanks 😊
Yes, especially during a pandemic.
It surprises me more governments haven’t mandated them yet. It sounds like that is starting to change.
I welcome the change. We are five waves in. I think the trends are obvious now. Now is the right time to start being stricter about requirements.
Hello. I appreciate the post. I will have to disagree with the analogy of wearing the seat belts. It has been proven many times that wearing seat belts saves lives. CDC has said that the vaccine is NOT 100% effective and will NOT mean one will not contract Covid.
I work in an emergency department as a social worker. 30% of those being admitted to the hospital have been vaccinated. That is a high number. The more people vaccinated, the high number of Covid cases due to the so called ‘breakthrough cases’. This is even stated by the CDC.
The early vaccine in late 2020/early 2021 became non effective thus the need for the booster. Sounds to me a vaccine should protect a person much longer than this has but we have to remember it was created and approved in an emergent manner. They are continuing to create ‘better’ vaccines and perhaps will finally come out with one that will be efficient and long lasting.
A virus will always mutate. That is what they do. Each year the flu mutates and they work on a vaccine they think will help with a new strain. They will have to do the same with Covid.
As far as the mandatory vaccines. As I said, I am a healthcare worker. I worked all through 2020 and 2021 and was exposed multiple times by positive patients and even a coworker and scathed by not getting Covid. I did not attend large gatherings outside of work, wore a mask and did my part to stay well. I was called in to work in November this year due to a coworker ill with Covid. Worked 4 long hour days straight as noone could. 4 days later I was ill with Covid. I believe I got it at work. I am not vaccinated. I am in recovery mode now. 3 family members also contracted Covid and they are not vaccinated. One only lost taste and smell but feels ok. Another had a mild case and is back to work. The other is doing better. I was the sickest. I developed the cough and the others did not. I think the cough is where people become the most ill. I was never hospitalized but did go to the ER. I made every effort to get better and seek treatment according to my needs. I certainly did not want Covid but here we are. I read different reports regarding immunity. Some reports say I will have natural immunity for 6 months, some say longer and doctor says 3-4 months. At any rate, I should be protected for a short time no different than having the vaccine. Both will wane over time. One study in Israel said having Covid provides better immunity than the vaccine whereas the CDC says the vaccine will add protection. 🤷🏼♀️
I certainly do not choose to be vaccinated and then go through any ill side effects or a breakthrough Covid illness AGAIN. Does not make sense to me to create an illness. If I get Covid again it will not be because I had help in doing so. Hopefully once was enough as it was not pleasant.
The mandatory vaccine for healthcare workers is not going to 100% protect workers if patients and families are coming to the hospital with Covid. Will vaccination possibly only allow mild symptoms once ill? Perhaps. No guarantee. I think people have a false sense that the vaccination will keep them from even getting Covid. That is not the case.
When they create a vaccine where I feel confident it will protect me, I will be first in line. I have negative reactions to any vaccine including the flu shot. Pfizer came out from the beginning and said the Covid vaccine would be worse then the flu shot. That was an indication to me personally that perhaps it was not a good time for me to take it. It should be a personal choice what I put into my body. I know my body. Everyone reacts differently to anything they put in their body. I do not believe me being vaccinated is protecting others. As long as I am not ill I cannot give someone what I don’t have.
What is even more interesting is my son and a friend tested negative several times in a row after I became ill and asked them to test. A few days later they were showing symptoms and then tested positive. This confirms for me that some people getting a negative test before traveling or coming home from travel and testing negative may in fact show symptoms a few days later and become ill.
I do not have all of the answers and I respect those who want the vaccination. I would like the same respect in return. Either they are just doing what they are told or they understand all information and know what is right for them. I would like to be given the information and let me decide what I choose based on my needs rather than a mandate forcing me to do something I know is not right for me.
Government starts with these types of mandates and total control will follow. We will no longer be a free country and with all of the control already in place our freedom has been in jeopardy for sometime.
Thank you for the conversation. Be well.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts/arguments. It’s a tough topic for sure.
My feeling about the seatbelt analogy though is that a seatbelt isn’t 100% effective either. Like I said, it doesn’t mean you won’t get in a car accident, but it will significantly increase your chances of survival, not to mention decrease your chances of passing it on if you are infected.
Of course the number of vaccinated people who contract Covid will increase as the number of people who are vaccinated increases. That’s just simple math. And yes the antibodies do wane over time. Variants are also inevitable (but far more likely to occur in the unvaccinated – the science is unequivocal about this) That’s why it’s important to get booster shots.
I’m sorry to hear you contracted Covid. My feeling is we all probably will at some point in our lives. It’s not going away. But that’s all the more reason to prime your body with the antibodies in advance in my eyes.
You say you were worried about having negative reactions to the vaccination. I did. Felt a little tired so I took the night off. In the morning I was fine. Even with a bad reaction though, it sounds like it wouldn’t be nearly as bad as contracting it (as you described it here.)
I agree that education and letting people choose to get vaccinated is ordinarily the right approach. I’m not saying we should force people but I believe there have to be consequences for those who refuse to get vaccinated in light of the circumstances and the overwhelming evidence for getting vaccinated.
Ill make one last point. The argument about freedoms and control was made by those who opposed seatbelt laws in the 1980s. Sometimes it’s got nothing to do with control. Sometimes it’s simply about saving lives and livelihoods. People are dying and vaccinations save lives. It’s as simple as that.
Thank you for taking the time to lend your thoughts. I really appreciate the debate. Wishing you well 🙏
I agree with you. Getting vaccinated is a vote for freedom indeed. But it is actually more than that. I will have my third shot tomorrow morning for three reasons: 1. I don’t want to get the Covid; 2. I don’t want to spread the Covid; 3. I want to be able to go home in Italy for the coming Christmas holidays (can you say Christmas in the US? We are debating in Europe, we want to be neutral, I personally find it ridiculous. But it is another topic.). So, being vaccinated is not only a matter of freedom but also of respect, for yourself and the others.
I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately we live in a time where misinformation is rife. Many people believe it’s largely ineffective or somehow worse to get vaccinated than it is to catch it. As for whether it’s politically incorrect to use the word Christmas. I honestly had no idea this was being debated. My response would be to use the lords name, but I fear I might offend someone. I’m guessing thats the real problem. But as you say, that’s another topic. Wishing you well Cristiana 🙏
Christiana,
I am glad you are doing what is right for you. I think the comment that one of the reasons you got vaccinated was because you don’t want to get Covid is giving you a false sense of security that just by getting the vaccination you won’t get Covid. I think what people mean to say is if I get vaccinated my chances are less likely but saying it is not going to happen is lying to ourselves. My very close friend was vaccinated and she’s had Covid for a week. Hopefully she will be well soon. The other statement that you don’t want to give anybody Covid…. No one wants to give anyone Covid but if someone has Covid and is around people they probably will get Covid by no fault of your own. Being vaccinated is not going to stop you from getting Covid nor stop you from transmitting Covid if you do have Covid. People with no symptoms who don’t even know they have Covid are transmitting Covid to other people. I am all for minimizing the risk of getting Covid but I think there are other measures to take besides the vaccination for many people. I do believe at some point we’re all going to need to get it and let it run its course and we will all be the better for that.
I think a lot of people have chosen to get the vaccination so they can travel. One of my sons did just that. He went to Europe this past summer. He also goes to sporting events and he wants to be able to go without getting tested every couple of days. I get it. I like to go on cruises but I’m not vaccinated so I will have to sacrifice doing some of the things that I want to do to make a choice right now to not be vaccinated. It doesn’t mean at some point I won’t choose to be vaccinated…when I feel it’s safe and something that I truly feel is right for me.
Stay safe and be well! 💕
No, it should not be mandated, because that would be against human rights. The fact that this is not obvious to a lot of people shows a major decline in consciousness (and conscience) in the population at large. There are very effective prophylaxis available that reduce symptomps and keep people out of hospitals.
I fail to see how administering free medical care in the form of vaccinations is a humans right issue. Especially when done to protect the most vulnerable. Equal treatment is a human rights issue. For most front line workers vaccinations are mandatory. They are some of worst affected by those who aren’t getting vaccinated. That’s not fair.
Another human right is the right to life. “This right means that no one – including individuals and the government- can kill you. Because it is the government’s responsibility to protect human rights, they must create laws that safeguard human life and protect you if your life is in danger.”
Mandating vaccinations would achieve exactly that.
All those frontline workers could have been on alternative preventive medications. The “vaccinations” have not been proven to be safe, meaning that imposing them is contrary to “This right means that no one – including individuals and the government- can kill you. Because it is the government’s responsibility to protect human rights, they must create laws that safeguard human life and protect you if your life is in danger.”
Yes, they must create laws to safeguard and protect people from experimental medical interventions that could potentially cause harm. These laws exist, but they are either ignored or overriden. Mandating any dangerous medical intervention knowingly would be against the Nuremberg code (I don’t suppose you would claim ignorance of it?).
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-nuremberg-mandate/fact-check-covid-19-public-health-measures-do-not-violate-nuremberg-code-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-experimental-idUSL1N2ST1XP
I like your point about the difference between mandatory and compulsory. People are bound to conflate the two, as it suits, in order to further agendas of their own.
I am a *little* on the fence about mandatory vaccines, though overall I agree. People speak of freedom and individual rights yet, to use another car-related analogy, no one has the right to drink and drive, for it places not only their own life at risk but the lives of those around them. It’s the same with the covid vaccine. If it affected no one else, then by all means take the risk. I’d consider that person to be making a stupid mistake but it would be their mistake to make. However they’re placing others at risk, and doing so deliberately (in some cases callously), and all because they A: think freedom and liberty means no consequences for their choices and B: because they drunk the conspiracy koolaid and think their Google search trumps the experience and knowledge of the experts.
Ben,
How is me not being vaccinated hurting anyone else? If I never ever get Covid in my life I can never spread it to anybody else Regardless if I were vaccinated or. Obviously I’m recovering from Covid so that will never come to pass. If I get vaccinated and I end up with Covid I’m going to spread it to people that I’ve been around. Maybe I have no symptoms at all and then I’m just spreading it to more people because I’m not staying away from people. I think there’s a lot of flaws in thinking that the vaccination is protecting the entire world when we’ve already seen a rise in Covid cases due to the vaccinations. I’m not arguing that there’s a possibility it can minimize symptoms if one gets it but the CDC has said it’s not 100% effective so if we believe the CDC then it’s not 100% effective and I think people are thinking that it is. The comments I see all the time or “I got vaccinated so I won’t get Covid”. What Kool-Aid are these people drinking?
I don’t think it’s just about liberty and freedom but someone telling me I have to do something to my body that I feel is not beneficial for me in that moment with what they have to offer in order to keep my job should not be allowed. If we’re going to have a mandate then everyone should be mandated to be vaccinated and not just a few.
I agree with you on the drinking and driving. I was hit by a drunk driver in 2020 and totaled my car. I’m lucky to be here to even contract Covid to be honest. Until we have zero tolerance for drinking and driving people are going to drink and drive. We don’t help people with addiction as we should and there’s a whole bunch of issues with mental health in this country that are not addressed. Another topic entirely.
Thank you for the discussion. Be well.
Greetings Melody,
Vaccines are about controlling a disease. No vaccine will prevent someone catching a disease but when enough people are vaccinated, it contributes greatly to herd immunity and helps shield the vulnerable. Historically, vaccination programs have all-but eradicated diseases like tuberculosis, smallpox and many other dangerous illnesses. Vaccinated people are less likely to spread covid than unvaccinated people. To quote from here: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808
[quote]Herd immunity also can be reached when enough people have been vaccinated against a disease and have developed protective antibodies against future infection. Unlike the natural infection method, vaccines create immunity without causing illness or resulting complications. Using the concept of herd immunity, vaccines have successfully controlled contagious diseases such as smallpox, polio, diphtheria, rubella and many others.
Herd immunity makes it possible to protect the population from a disease, including those who can’t be vaccinated, such as newborns or those who have compromised immune systems.[/quote]
The vaccines make it more likely that the virus won’t spread – studies have shown that the virus does not spread nearly as much in vaccinated populations: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/
[quote]People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.
“They absolutely do reduce transmission,” says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.”
A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated.[/quote]
All that said, I *do* understand that people are reluctant. So much has unfolded in a very quick span of time, and unlike with the campaigns to vaccinate against smallpox, we live in an age where anyone can rapidly spread information – and disinformation – very easily. The days of listening to qualified experts who have spent decades studying their fields are more or less over – armchair experts who have spent five minutes on a search engine believe they know as much, if not more, than the professionals. What’s the saying? ‘A lie can get halfway around the world before the truth has got its pants on’.
We want our freedoms but we also have a duty of care to others. Vaccines work. They offer our best chance of returning to normal.
Argh! I typed out and submitted a lengthy reply and WordPress ate it. Grr.
Hi Melody – just catching up on all the comments. This one got A LOT – and long ones too. I see your point about it not being 100% effective. I don’t dispute that. I don’t know too many that do, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a few out there who believe it’s a magical cure all solution. There is no such thing. I believe those who are vaccinated should still take precautions including mask wearing for that reason. Of course, we still need to try and have a life as well. That said, the CDC still highly recommends them for the purpose of reducing the risk of catching it, severe illness and death – especially in the over 65s. All the data and studies plus information on many of the myths circulating out there is on their site. It’s worth reviewing. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/index.html
I am part of that group who was mandated to get vaccinated by both my company and my government. My feeling regards equality is the same as you. Mandates can’t only apply to the few. It’s either all or nothing. I appreciate many feel strongly about being told what to do with their bodies. I understand that. My feeling with that is more a matter of trust. Medical professionals tell people what to do with their bodies. Or at least give recommendations. That’s their job. Being forced to do something of course is another matter. I do think there is a big difference between mandatory vaccinations and compulsory vaccinations. France have had a lot of success boosting vaccinations by simply preventing unvaccinated from entering restaurants. A soft mandate might that might be the best approach. Firing someone might be too much. I think if mandates are to be implemented they need to be done so tactfully.
Thank you for adding your thoughts and making me think a little more about all this. Wishing you well 🙏
Exactly. They place the lives of others at risk. This is why I believe the state needs to step in and mandate them. Because, when it comes to the pandemic, we’re all drivers. I believe that sometimes you have to enforce responsibility on the few, to protect the freedoms of the majority. I agree that a huge part of the problem is misinformation. Ordinarily I’d say that education is the best way to go about it, but we live in crazy times. Thanks for your input Ben. Much appreciated. Wishing you well 🙏
It’s my pleasure – you raised many good points, and I hope more people end up seeing what you’ve had to say.
Thanks Ben. I appreciate your efforts on here to separate fact from fiction. Whether one is for or against mandatory vaccinations doesn’t bother me. And I get it. I get why people think it’s wrong. What I find hard to accept are those who want some kind of acknowledgment that by not getting vaccinated they’re not risking other peoples lives as a result, that they’re not putting themselves at greater risk too. Which simply isn’t true. They want to have their opinion cake and eat it too.
AP2, but your argument could be applied to vaxxed people too, no? I have modified your comment indicated by brackets:
What I find hard to accept are those who want some kind of acknowledgment that by [‘not’ – delete] getting vaccinated they’re not risking other peoples lives as a result, that they’re not putting themselves at greater risk too. Which simply isn’t true. They want to have their opinion cake and eat it too.
I have only removed one small word ‘not’ and the same applies for the vaccinated, because as stated before the vaccinated can risk other people’s lives by getting infected and transmitting the virus. So, why persist with such statements? Is it purely ideologial?
Ok, I’ll slightly rephrase.
What I find hard to accept are those who want some kind of acknowledgment that by not getting vaccinated they’re not putting peoples lives AT GREATER risk as a result, that they’re not putting themselves at greater risk too. Which simply isn’t true. They want to have their opinion cake and eat it too.
Listen, if I going for I drive, I’m taking a risk. Car accidents happen – even, sometimes, when we take all the precautions we can. That’s just the nature of driving. But if I go for a drive without wearing a seatbelt or worse, after I’ve been drinking, I’m putting both myself and others at an unnecessarily greater risk. This is why those things are law/against the law.
The analogy still stands.
By not getting vaccination you’re taking a greater risk to both yourself and others. That is something we all need to accept. Because that is the reality. That is what the science and data is/has proven.
If there are alternative solutions available that have been proven to be equally effective as early treatements and/orprophylaxis and some don’t even need a doctor’s prescription, why should a new experimental solution be touted as the only solution when there is no long-term data available about it’s safety or efficacy? Surely it is my right to rater use the option I deem to be safer since I am in charge of my own body and have the right to bodily autonomy? For me it’s a no-brainer that mandates would impose upon my human rights.
If there are alternative options that are proven to be equally effective then I’m all for giving the choice. As far as I’m aware nothing is as effective as inoculation through vaccination without catching the disease itself. (I’m more than happy to be proven wrong). And there is a huge amount of data available. BILLIONS of people have been vaccinated already. It’s efficacy has been tested. Extremely well tested in fact. I don’t think we can call it experimental after 3 billion people have received it.
But I agree it should be your right to choose. It shouldn’t be forced. That’s why I made the point about mandatory versus compulsory. No one should forcibly inject someone, but I believe there have to be restrictions placed on those who are perfectly healthy but still refuse to get vaccinated despite all the evidence for in light of the seriousness of the situation. They are slowing down the recovery and infringing other peoples freedoms in a much bigger way as a result. There is no greater restriction on peoples rights than death.
I appreciate this is a heated discussion but please know I really appreciate you adding your thoughts. I think the conversation is important. Wishing you well. 🙏
Manadatory equals force because people’s rights are taken away when they don’t want to comply with mandates. That’s totalitarian and dictatorial. I have stated before that the fact that this is not self-evident to people and that they are participating in supporting it, means that history is returning because people refuse to learn from it.
Thanks for the discussion – I have recently published two essays delving into what’s unfolding in the world on a much deeper level (metaphysically and spiritually). If you are interested you can read my latest essay here:
https://energyshifts.net/structure-through-consciousness/
This is my last comment on this post – thanks for the debate, AP2.
All the best,
J.J.
I don’t believe it equals force. I was mandated to get vaccinated – I wasn’t forced, but I would have lost my job. I had no problem with that. They don’t want me to drink and drive on the job. I believe that’s fair, although I appreciate you feel very differently. I’ll be sure to check out your post J.J. And listen, I know we don’t see eye to eye on this one but I really do appreciate you challenging me on it all. You have given my plenty of food for thought at any rate. Wishing you well 🙏
I’m not trying to inflame but just want to give my opinion…
I cannot more heartily disagree with your stance on the vaccine mandate. Primarily because people’s argument of that the vaccine choice affects others.
I call an audible.
All the vaccinated masses still can (and do) catch AND transmit COVID. The vaccine can lessen symptoms of those who do catch COVID and are also therefore more likely to be asymptotic, meaning they can therefore be spreading the virus to the immune compromised or those of us with whom the vaccine could threaten their health for other reasons. For me and others with similar illnesses, vaccines are very high risk and not worth it – laying that out there.
Ultimately, it is the governments around the world trying to force people to put something into their bodies that has unknown longterm effects.
My question, where is the line of government control drawn? What then is the next acceptable mandate?
Let’s say…You can’t work outside of your home unless your spouse and children are also vaccinated, including 6 month old babies and up, once that vaccine is approved for more than just emergency use? Who is to determine when that is actually safe?
The minute we give up our liberties, I feel all is lost.
I just picture in a couple years time, yet another new variant, and another new barely tested vaccine that is still even more risky (think Johnson and Johnson irreversible mental damage). But wait, we need to do what they mandate! if you want to work, travel, eat out at a restaurant, see a movie with friends…you need your vaccine card. Your ‘reverse Scarlett Letter’, if you will.
This is not my society. My society values their liberties and the right to protect their bodies.
Many people I speak to have zero issue with the vaccine, their issue is being forced by someone else to put something in their body. I really wish all the Pro-choicers would raise as much hell on this issue as they do on their right to have….a CHOICE on our bodies.
Ultimately, if someone chooses not to vaccinate (buckle up…) and dies, that is on their shoulders, correct? Our choices have consequences and we are adults and have the freedom, for now, to make those choices.
Please don’t advocate for those freedoms to be taken away…
Don’t worry about fanning the flames. We’re all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. I want to have the discussion. That’s why I wrote the post.
But to rebuttal, is the death of those who catch Covid because people refuse to get vaccinated not on their shoulders? Nothing is black and white and there is no perfect solution. The main argument I hear time and again is that vaccinations don’t work. But that’s simply not true. Seatbelts are NOT 100 percent effective, but that’s not a good reason not to wear one.
There are few advances in medical science that have saved more lives than the invention of vaccinations.
Of course if you have legitimate medical reasons not to get vaccinated I agree it shouldn’t be mandatory, but for those who are fit and health..!?
The science is unequivocal (I linked to studies in the article) that if you get vaccinated AND catch Covid the chances of death, hospitalisation, transmissions and mutations ALL DECREASE. Significantly. That’s what the huge amount of data is telling us. The unvaccinated are holding back the recovery and costing lives. This is a far greater impediment to peoples freedoms than having to get vaccinated. My argument is a strong advocation for freedoms. I find it hard to understand why people can’t see that side of it?
It’s worth pointing out that the argument about liberties was made by those who opposed seatbelt laws in the 1980s. Sometimes laws are put in place to simply save lives and protect the freedoms of the majority.
If all I have to do is get a jab in my arm and show proof of vaccination to help the recovery and safe lives – it’s a no brainer for me.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on a difficult subject. I really appreciate it. Wishing you well 🙏
Unfortunately, the shot has NOT kept people from dying, I’ve had a couple of friends who had the shot and died from complications of the shot. It should be a choice.
I am very sorry to hear about your loss. To be clear, I’m not against the choice. I’m simply for mandating them, which is very different to making them compulsory. Of course, if there are legitimate medical concerns it goes without saying there should be exemptions. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate its not an easy topic to talk about. 🙏
Thanks for sharing this. It is a difficult topic During a pandemic I think it is important that people get vaccinated, not just to slow down the spread, but also to hopefully slow down mutations. It is a little worrisome that some people think that full government control would happen if something that is being done to protect public health is mandated. I can’t imagine what will happen if a more virulent and deadly virus comes around. What some people are forgetting, or maybe don’t care about, is also the burden on hospitals. Yes vaccinated people can catch and transmit the virus. No one is disputing that, what it is helping is taking the strain off of hospitals and lessening the amount of people that die from this.
Yes, but there are other treatments that work equally well to keep people out of hospitals and reduce symptomps …
Agreed. A seatbelt doesn’t prevent deaths on the road. It doesn’t prevent accidents either. But that’s not a good reason not to wear one.
It is of course, a difficult subject. I find it most disturbing how unwilling many people are to have an open conversation about this.
Regarding the paranoia around full government control. I live in a place (Hong Kong) where that has happened. It’s been awful to watch. The longer the pandemic goes on, the greater control they’re able, and have been able, to take. Vaccinations are still optional though. It has nothing to do with it.
The burden has been great not just on healthcare workers but all front line staff. Many of my colleagues have been living in isolation for much of the year to help keep the world turning. It’s been a trying time indeed.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I appreciate it. Wishing you well 🙏
In my view the fact that the experimental injections are linked to a ‘health-pass’ means that a two-tier society is created. Those who don’t have the pass also cannot get equal access to services or facilities. That means that there now exists a new type of apartheid. Being from South Africa I would have to reject this whole concept on principle. I do find it extraordinary though how many people who live in nations who imposed sanctions on South Africa back in the 80’s and 9f’s for apartheid – people who used to vilify South Africans and who always took the moral high ground – are no advocating for medical apartheid, because that’s what it is. Since alternative preventive solutions exist without it being attached to a pass, it’s the morally and ethically superior position to take to rather opt out of the experimental ‘vaccine’. So the question about mandates is much larger than just health, but it’s fundamentally a human rights issue regarding supporting a new apartheid or not. Strange how everyone avoids this part of the debate.
But how can you call a vaccination that has been administered to over 3 billion people experimental? That kind of false narrative is extremely damaging. It’s simply not true or fair to call it so. I’d add that there would be no two-tier society if vaccinations are mandated. Then the same law applies to everyone. Just like vaccinations are already mandated for health care workers and other front line staff. That is fair. That’s exactly why I’m for a mandate. You want to drive on the road you have to wear a seatbelt. Those who aren’t are severely limiting the freedoms of others. An apartheid is discrimination on the basis of race. Hardly a good comparison. Then you could argue that those who drink and drive are being discriminated against because they believe that drinking and driving isn’t dangerous. Nonsense. If there are alternative preventive solutions that are as effective then I’m all for. But could you please show my a link to a study that shows of that is as effective/more effective? Most of the stuff I’ve found are drugs that are still very much in the experimental phase (unlike most of the vaccinations on the market) and used to treat Covid not prevent it.
The number of people it has been administered does not automatically make it ‘not experimental’ – I told you before that I participated as a volunteer in clinical trails – I did close to 10 of them more than a decade ago in the U.K. It had always been the case that trails run for 7/8 years (minimum). There are sound reasons for that. It can take years for long-terms effects to appear. I have seen with my own eyes how people developed side effects on trials even though we were in some of the final test groups where the product has already gone through testing for 3 or 4 years, so I’m speaking from direct experience and participation as well as from historical medical history. As things stand these new treatments (Covid injections) are still in a testing phase, but on the general population – if you don’t like me saying that then that’s fine. IVM and HCQ as well as Cuercetin protocol have all been proven to be effective in the population at large against Covid during the last two years – the first two have been widely used in Africa and India in particular, but also other places such as Peru and some states of Brazil. The studies and the results are out there and available if you look them up. Very few side-effects if any for the above solutions, whereas the same cannot be said for the experimental injections (look at the adverse events reporting databases …). At this stage there’s little point in debating this further as it seems you have made up your mind, and it’s not up to me to convince you of anything, I’m just stating my views and my knowledge from lived experience and my own observations and research. Thanks for making the debate possible though as discussing these issues ARE very important, even though theer are major disagreements.
(But this will be my last comment on this particular post).
Hey J.J. I’m sorry if I came on a bit strong in previous comments. This is an emotional issue for me for many reasons. I am listening to your side of the argument. I see your point about it being experimental in the sense of unknown effects years down the line. Accordance to the CDC, so far there is no evidence of this unless you had a reaction within the first 6 weeks of getting vaccinated. Which is extremely rare. The risks of long term health issues from catching Covid is well known and quite common. My feeling is, it’s a much bigger experiment not to get vaccinated. The data shows rather emphatically you’re taking a far greater risk not getting vaccinated. That’s not me saying that. Those are the words of countless medical journals, studies and institutions. Several links in the article above.
As for the drugs you mention. Here’s some advice on IVM and HCQ:
https://scdhec.gov/covid19/dangers-using-hydroxychloroquine-ivermectin-preventing-or-treating-covid-19
I’d much rather take my chances with the vaccination. As for Quercetin I can only find studies used for treating not preventing. Happy to be shown otherwise.
Anyway thanks for the heated debate J.J. Regardless of belief here I sincerely wish you well. Take care
Well duh!
I think COVID is being treated differently from all the other infections diseases we get vaccinated for. Diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, chickenpox, measles, We don’t have 50 million people being agitated by their chosen influencers into a resistance movement. If has become a political movement with many if the characteristics of a religious faith.
It is a measure of how far into willful ignorance the public has fallen. I’m holding social bubbles and the internet responsible. Today’s public would never have defeated smallpox.
I rek if vaccinations being mandated was common practise, no one would bat an eyelid today. Just like no one complains about seatbelt law’s anymore. There was uproar when they were introduced in the 1980s.
Regarding the internet/social bubbles – I believe that’s why the state should step in and mandate them. People are dying and misinformation about vaccination is only going one direction. It’s a tough choice for a leader to make, but in the interests of protecting the freedoms and lives of the majority, I believe it is the right one.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Fred. Wishing you well 🙏
There are a lot of ways to make life impractical if you are not vaccinated. Want to go to a public school? Get vaccinated. Want to use any kind of common carrier transport? Get vaccinated. Want to get government contracts? Get the workers vaccinated. Want to get a lower business tax rate? Get the workers vaccinated.
The government doesn’t have to pass a law requiring it. It just needs to deny contracts and funds to entities that don’t require their workers to get vaccinated. That’s how we ended up with almost universal urine tests to get a job.
I see your point. Perhaps a more subtle approach is better. Judging by the huge backlash I got, I’m guessing that mandates might create more resistance and further entrench certain conspiracy theorists. That said, I think passing laws that make life impractical might still do the same. There is a lot of fear surrounding mandates comes from this idea that we’re somehow going to descend into a Nazi state. I was mandated to get vaccinated. My employer didn’t want me to drink and drive. I felt that was more than fair.
No vaccine is 100% effective at stopping people getting the disease or stopping them passing it on. But they do reduce the risk for the vaccinated and every one else. I know someone who was double vaxxed and still ended up in hospital for about 10 weeks including time in the ICU. I think anyone who thinks I’m vaxxed, I’m safe is kidding themselves.
Do I think vaccinations should be mandatory? I really struggle with this one. But I do feel the seatbelt and drink driving analogies are very suitable. There’s human rights (people have the right to say no to vaccination) and the rights of all the other humans who are affected by your choices. It’s tough!
So AP2: pilots got COVID in another country doing their job and they got fired? I understand the going into quarantine thing as we have that here but fired? Really for somehow bringing the job into disrepute? Wow!
The seatbelt and drunk driving analogies are only valid if one ignores the fact that other solutions exist besides experimental injections. Considering that there are equally effective solutions with more or less zero side-effects (as opposed to the experimental gene therapy labeled a ‘vaccine’ …), all these arguments persist.
That means the the pro-vax camp has turned into a religious movement, because any mention of alternative solutions or side-effects, or the fact that the injections are linked to a medical-apartheid pass, are simply ignored no matter how many times it’s repeated. So there’s basically no point in debating the issues with the pro camp.
Books will be written about these times we are in right now. No doubt everybody will plead innocence (and claim ignorance) in retrospect – the pattern is always the same. History returns because humans refuse to learn from it.
What alternative solutions exist? In what way are these vaccines experimental? What evidence exists that suggests the side-effects of the vaccines far outweigh the consequences of not getting the vaccines?
All the answers to your questions are readily available and by now are well known. That you pose these questions as if they are unknown shows an uninterest (if not denial) of the whole truth.
1. Alternative solutions: See protocols (i.e. Quercetin and a combination of other ingredients – all over the counter) by Dr Vladimir Zelenko on his website – 1000’s of patients have been treated effectively worldwide with 80% to 90% reduction in hospitlizations and fast recovery. There are are other such protocols by other medical professionals, this is just one of them – well known by now, except for those refusing to consder them. Then there are also other ‘controversial’ options (HCQ and IVM), successfully used in many places – see India, Peru, and parts of Africa – with excellent results, surpassing that of the experimental injections. All well know data by know, but not presented in the mainstream.
2. They are experimental because it’s a new technology, and do not even qualify as vaccines. The usual time period to test drugs is usually a minimum of 7 years, because it can take up to 5 years for long-term side-effects to be know and to appear – I should know because I have personally participated as a healthy volunteer in clinal trials more than a decade ago. That was always the protocol – for decades. This is well known too.
3. As for evidence of side effects, the databses that record them already have many thousands listed, that’s besides observational side-effects (on many sports people for example) and also very witness testimonials online – all well known. Why your questions Ben, if this is all known? Do you deny all of the above? I’m not here to convince you or anyone. Only to poit out well-known facts. If you want to simply ignore it all, that’s your perogative.
Asking questions is not an indicator that one does not wish to know the truth – it’s the exact opposite. A failure to present details of these alternatives when asked, might be considered more deceptive, though I appreciate you have at least mentioned names, if not provided links to sources.
With that in mind, let’s work through…
1. Quercetin is a treatment, that may help with symptoms and mitigate the effects of the virus. It is not a preventative measure and will not stop it from spreading. Vaccination is a better preventative measure. To quote from here: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01451/full
[quote]Quercetin has been investigated for its possible antiviral effect on several members of the Coronaviridae family and, as mentioned by Ling Yi and colleagues, “quercetin offers great promise as a potential drug in the clinical treatment of SARS” (98).[/quote]
Whereas the vaccines are effective at both preventing serious symptoms and in stifling the spread of the disease. https://www.redcross.org.uk/get-help/coronavirus/coronavirus-vaccine/coronavirus-vaccine-faq?c_code=175151&c_source=google&c_name=Coronavirus%20Vaccine%20Response&adg=&c_creative=generic&c_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKCAiAwKyNBhBfEiwA_mrUMmI2sty88sU34oJ2JmJ8hhEMba5aVNCZqpmM-hdLHQM1pf8h3dW21hoCXtYQAvD_BwE
Moving on to point 2, the vaccines have been tested. They have been thoroughly evaluated and they are based on existing science. There has been a great deal of urgency to get these vaccines developed by experienced professionals in their fields – their work should be applauded.
3. You say your details are well-known, in which case I’m certain you have provide evidence that others can verify to support your claims.
I’m going to present some data now, that was current as of the first half of the year, so quite recent:
The risk of death involving COVID-19 was consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared to one or no vaccination, as shown by the weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19.
Breakthrough cases” are where infection has occurred in someone who is fully vaccinated, whereas we define a “breakthrough death” as a death involving COVID-19 that occurred in someone who had received both vaccine doses and had a first positive PCR test at least 14 days after the second vaccination dose; in total, there were 256 breakthrough deaths between 2 January and 2 July 2021.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween2januaryand2july2021
You can see what I had to say and where I drew my information from here: https://meerkatmusings.co.uk/hard-to-believe/
So, yes I ask questions, and I look to the facts.
“… a first positive PCR test at least 14 days after the second vaccination dose.”
It’s during these 14 days that most of the “shedding” occur, but conveniently not counted.
The reason by why I did not list links is because both sides can find date to support their claims and by now bith sides are pretty much entrenched in their views and consider their data to be superior. My main position is one of human rights (i.e. medical apartheid and the right to bodily autonomy). The average mortality rate of Covid per 1 million people globally is very low, only slightly higher than sever flu seasons, so draconian measures such as lock-downs and injection mandates are simply not justified. This is NOT the Black Death or the Spanish Flu. In fact, if you look at mortality rates per age group then there is only a pandemic in the over-70’s age group. The mortality rates are exceedingly low for the lower age groups – the lower the further you go down. mandating injections upon young people and especially children has (in my view) no ethical or moral foundations – it’s simpy wrong because children are virtually at zero risk of dying from the virus, whereas the genative impact of the injections upon them is unknown – no long-term data.
BTW, I left a link in one of my other comments and it didn’t go through which is one of the other reasons why I avoid posting links.
According to here: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu a billion people get the flu every year, and between 290,000 and 650,000 die from it worldwide each year.
Covid-19 on the other hand, has seen 265 million cases and 5.25 million deaths. Therefore, in percentage terms, it is much more deadly than the flu, and deaths are only part of the problem. Covid presents people with long-term health problems in a way flu does not.
I made the point about mandatory versus compulsory because people should have the right to say no. And exemptions should be made for those who have legitimate medical reasons. But I do believe those who are fit and healthy who refuse ought to be penalised in some way too. Sometimes the state has to step in and make tough choices to protect the freedoms and lives of the majority.
Certainly vaccinations aren’t perfect. Neither are seatbelts. But that’s not a good reason not to wear one. I think it’s a mistake to let people who have been vaccinated stop wearing masks. Masks work. I live in one of the most densely populated cities in the world. The pandemic has never gotten out of hand here. Even when we had waves we were able to keep a lid on it. I believe a lot of that has to do with a very disciplined public who have been wearing face masks pretty much from day one here.
Yeah the sacking lead to a bunch of resignations here. The treatment of aircrew here has been mental. Feel like we’re looked at as rats during the great plague.
That said it turns out that crew left their hotel rooms during a layover which is against our protocols. But I feel for them. I have to ask, how much of this serious breach had to do with the serious psychological strain they’ve been put under? No one here asked that question. The truth is we’re not even allowed outside for exercise. Even prisoners have that right. It’s crazy here. BUT vaccinations are optional (just not for aircrew)
We live in crazy times. Thanks E. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Wishing you well 🙏
Wow, a lot of people have strong opinions about this one! I find it so fascinating to hear what your life is like in Hong Kong. The idea of pilots and their families put in an isolation camp and then getting fired. Whoa – that blows me away and is terrifying.
I want this pandemic to end and support everything that works towards that so I got vaccinated as soon as I could hoping that it would help. What seems so interesting is whether the mandates work to further resistance or compliance. Hard to tell especially short-term versus long-term. I suspect we all have a lot of perspective to gain on this when it’s in the rear view mirror.
Fascinating debate! Thanks, AP2
Yes, I fear I may have angered the hornets nest with this one… 😬
Your point about resistance is a good one. Initially there will be. The voices of discontent will be loud. BUT, they already are. They already refute the science.
I honestly believe if mandating vaccinations was common practise already, no one would bat an eyelid. I made the point about seatbelts for that reason. There was a huge amount of uproar when seatbelt laws were introduced believe it or not.
Still, I believe that education is the right approach in the long term. We shouldn’t stop educating and encouraging people to make the choice themselves (I made the distinction between mandatory and compulsory for that reason), but the fact remains those who refuse to get vaccinated are prolonging the pandemic and costing lives. We can’t afford to delay. I believe there should be some kind of consequence levied against them for choosing not to get vaccinated for this reason.
It’s a tough choice, but I believe it would be the right one. Thanks for adding to the debate Wynne. Wishing you well! 🙏
Interesting post. I believe in the freedom of choice, and the Darwin awards.
I would agree accept that approach, in this case, puts others at risk. Like driving under the influence. Killing yourself is one thing, but putting other peoples lives at risk… I find it hard to accept that position.
No!
Fair enough. But why?
Because there’s a thing called FREEDOM and no one, no matter who or what it is, should NEVER tell anyone how or what they should do with their body. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not an antivaxer but if reference to Covid – it’s gotta stop. Like the flu, there will be dozens of varitents and no one needs a shot for all of that. Let the body do what it’s designed to do.
But my argument is in FULL support of freedom. The only difference is you’re looking at it from an individual level whereas I’m looking at it from a collective position. Vaccinations have saved more lives than almost any other advancement in human history. Why we would turn our back on that science during the first pandemic in living history? The way I see it people are being asked to take an infinitesimally small risk for the freedoms and lives of the majority. And, to be clear, I’m not telling people what to do with their bodies. I’m simply pointing out the fact that a refusal to get vaccinated puts other people’s bodies at a much higher risk of illness/death. I believe there should be consequences for that given what’s at stake. It’s about protecting other people’s bodies and lives and yes, freedoms. Imagine we were at war and asked to put our lives on the line to protect our freedoms. This kind of individualistic attitude makes me worry about the future of democracy and freedom. It really really does.
That said Donna these are simply my opinions. I hope you can understand that. And I DO really appreciate you taking the time to read to share your thoughts on what is undeniably a very difficult topic. Wishing you well. 🙏
I understand your opinion AP2 but … like I said, I am not an anti-vaxer. Yes, I am looking at this from an individual level, and when we ALL do, this affects the collective for our highest good.
Please understand that I live as a psychic medium, have hyper-sensitive senses, and know when something is off, like this “pandemic.” Look at all the people, and I know many, who are fully vaccinated and still got VERY sick. Something is very off with the “vaccine,” and I’ll leave it at that.
My husband and I both got Covid in March. We are both almost 60 and survived it just fine – as a matter of fact, and I had stomach viruses way worse than Covid. I know some people got sick from it and passed – the variables are all over the place. I’m just saying natural immunity is best, and for my personal, I will not inject my body with experimental drugs without letting my body do its job first. IF, IF years from now, Covid has more “science” under its belt, I may consider it, but for now, when it’s known to be an experiment as all-new vaxes are, it’s a no.
Thank you for your comments AP2. I’m done voicing my opinion and thank you for yours 🙂
But it’s not an experimental drug. You can’t call it that when over 3 billion people have been vaccinated. The trials and data are in. The vaccinations work! But getting vaccinated doesn’t mean you won’t catch it, only that it reduces your chances of catching it, and thus passing it on to other people. And even if you do, it greatly improves your odds of survival. The chances are most people will survive it just fine without a vaccination. But those chances are much smaller for the most vulnerable of society. It’s for them that we should get vaccinated – if we have no medical reason not to. And yes the variables are all over the place. That’s no different to the flu but unlike the flu it hasn’t passed through the vast majority of the worlds population yet. And it is more deadly. This is why it’s especially critical to get vaccinated at this time.
I believe the medical community needs to be respected here. It’s such a shame that so people don’t trust it when vaccinations have done more much to protect lives than almost any invention in human history. Honestly how many vaccinations have you had before where you never questioned the science? I’m guessing quite a few. I find the thing that’s off here is the rampant misinformation about it all. People who even deny that there’s a pandemic going on. Anyway I’ll leave it there too.
Thank you again for sharing Donna. I appreciate your honest thoughts on the matter. Wishing you well 🙏
I think the evidence is clear that vaccines save lives. Vaccines are not a new concept. Children must have all their shots to attend school. Travelers must have shots to enter many countries. Covid vaccinations are much the same.
Some people seem to have lost the power of logical thought. Many have become victims of disinformation campaigns. Covid is a medical issue, not a political one! Anti-maskers and anti-vaxers perpetuate the virus and its mutations and threaten those too young to be vaccinated.
Mandates may be needed if people do not come to their senses.The variants may keep coming, a scary prospect. Covid is the enemy, not medical science.
Thank you, AP, for posting this discussion topic. 🙂 Have a great weekend!
Thank you Cheryl. I get the impression I’m in the minority here given how outspoken some people are against the idea. I find it mind boggling that the suggestions is looked at with such disdain. I feel like the argument has a huge amount of merit but hey ho. Still, I’m glad I brought it up. If it opens but one persons eyes (you never know). Have a great weekend too! 🙂🙏
Robert and I both have suffered serious effects of long covid since we were infected nearly two years ago. Though the worst seems to be over, we still suffer some symptoms. There are also long covid cases in children that leave them with disabilities. Scary stuff!
I’m sorry to hear about that Cheryl. Many of the fears surrounding vaccinations relate to longer term health issues for which there is no evidence unless you had a reaction to the vaccination early on. Long Covid is quite common and well known. It sounds like something I would rather avoid getting/passing on to my kids. I sincerely hope more people get vaccinated. Wishing you and Robert well. 🙏
AP, thank you for making this discussion possible. I’d like to respond to a couple of your sentences:
” The un-vaccinated are holding back the recovery and costing lives. This is a far greater impediment to peoples freedoms than having to get vaccinated.”
Your assumption must be based on the fact that you are ignoring several well-known factors (by now) .
1. Natural immunity obtained from recovering from the virus is equally good, if not better than artificially induced immunity – many experts have weighed in on this by now – data shows it too: many injected nations(high rates) also have highest case rates and very high hospitalizations.
To prove her immunity works better you just have to look at the case rates and mortality rates of the entire continent of Africa. Africa has the lowest injection rates, it also has the weakest medical infrastructure and medical care systems – there’s malnutrition in some places and many other diseases that could act as comorbidities such as cholera, TB, HIV and malaria … yet, Africa has the lowest cases and the lowest mortality from Covid on the planet. Can you explain that? This ‘supernatural’ phenomenon is not analyzed in the mainstream – simple ignored.
2. The un-vaccinated can (and many are) making use of alternative preventive protocols that are equally effective in preventing getting infected, being hospitalized or having severe symptoms. Where I live, IVM is available and legal – many people are using it as a prophylactic but over the counter solutions exist too – see my comment to Ben.
3. Injected people can get infected (and often do), they can transfer the infection (through ‘shedding’) and they can end up in hospital (many do), so there’s no difference between the injected. And when the un-injected are on alternative preventive protocols they are probably better off, because there’s no risk of injury from the injections.
I would say though the fact that none of the alternative remedies or treatments are promoted or even allowed in many cases, seems to be political. Why so many people would play along with the suppression of such solutions is an open question, but an argument could be made that it is they who are costing lives – also by promoting the experimental injection as the only solution even though there are many known side-effects.
All of this will sort itself out over time, but the suppression of truth (of alternative solutions and of the very real dangers of taking the injections) will eventually be self-evident. Many people will then claim ignorance or innocence, but could people really claim that in the internet age?
Another factor is that people are prepare to cut their fellow citizens off from free access to normal services and normal life. That’s much worse than what apartheid in South Africa was for which it’s implementers were so severely vilified. During apartheid people were segregated yes, but they still had access to all services – they just could not access them together, they had to do so separately within their ethnic groups. How many liberals who were/are against segregation in the USA and Apartheid in South Africa are now FOR mandates that are linked to a pass that restricts movement?
That certainly stirred things up! I’m among those who strongly disagree with you, I’m afraid, and for one reason only (I’m personally pro-vax). The evidence you cite in support is from research published in February when vaccines were very new, and presumably carried out a bit before then. The emerging hard data is clearly showing that vaccination has little or no effect on transmission, though it does significantly reduce serious illness, hospitalisation and death – which is why I’m in favour, But the ONLY argument I can see for mandatory vaccination is that of protecting others. And – sadly – vaccination does no such thing. Could I ask you to bone up on all the research, especially that carried out recenty, and see if it changes your mind? Meanwhile, thanks for expressing your view. The only way we can come together as a society after the shaking we’ve all had is to have honest debate.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I went away and did some more research as requested. I believe there are holes in peoples thinking about covid vaccinations. The argument regarding transmissions for example simply isn’t true. There is currently not enough data to say whether transmission rates are any more or less in “breakthrough cases” (although it looks like this is the case), but the fact that you’re less likely to contract it in the first place means that vaccinations certainly do reduce transmission rates. Consequently one can save with a extremely high degree of confidence that getting vaccinationed DOES save lives. But they work FAR better when everyone is on board. Here are some more recent articles/studies.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.14.21264959v1
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/amp/
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/6403678001
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccinated-people-can-transmit-the-coronavirus-but-its-still-more-likely-if-youre-unvaccinated
An honest debate at the end of the day is what I’m after. I really appreciate your input. Thank you for making think more deeply about my article/research. Wishing you well 🙏
Hmm… I see that the comments section is filled with adults who know their bodies and are capable of making rational decisions, and I don’t wish to argue with anyone as I don’t like debates, but what about children and teenagers?
Will they be given the same choice when vaccines for them come out (they haven’t yet come out in my country) or will they have to let either their parents (if any) or the government decide for them? Won’t that be a loss of freedom either way?
Will not adults refusing to take vaccines influence children, especially those who are scared of the needle? Should not vaccines be made mandatory for healthy children, at least?
Here, many parents and students are protesting against school and college reopenings solely on the argument that the students are unvaccinated. What if many students or their parents refuse to take vaccines? Will schools not reopen? I can’t attend online classes forever!
Good questions. I honestly don’t know. I would have a thought that a child can’t/shouldn’t make the choice for himself or herself – one would feel that a mandate shouldn’t apply to them. I don’t whether it is right to let the government decide over the parent on that one. But maybe teenagers over a certain age should be included in any mandate. Either way, I feel many universities and schools certainly will limit access to the unvaccinated. Many already do – they require children to be vaccinated for all sorts of diseases. This isn’t something new. I suspect schools/Universities will reopen this way regarding covid.
I hesitate to comment on the policies of countries I don’t live in and am not intimately familiar with, but my takeaway from your post was not that vaccination should be mandated, but more that your country’s policy about not opening up until vaccination rate (which is plateauing everywhere) is higher is flawed. And granted, I don’t know how big the gap between the current and desired vaccination rates is, and the demographics of the gap (lack of availability? legitimate medical exemption? sincerely held religious belief? children not eligible or newly eligible? healthy adults who don’t want to get vaccinated?) But my read from your post was that because of the policy, there was little immediate incentive for an unvaccinated individual which concerns about the vaccine to get vaccinated because of the ban on reopening.
I’ll get honest and personal here: I felt weirdly neutral about the COVID vaccines. A lot of this was driven by a deeply depressed / pessimistic / nihilist life outlook (honestly, there are days when I can’t tell my political opinions from my general depression/pessimism/nihilism). I didn’t think the vaccine was unsafe or harmful, but I also didn’t think the vaccine was really going to do anything, and by “anything” I mean both efficacy against the virus and also that the vaccine would really enable life to go back to normal. I felt like everyone was inevitably going to get COVID. I wasn’t really moved by altruism-centered arguments because I didn’t really think the vaccine was going to do much.
What convinced me to get the vaccine (and I did get it when once my state opened up availability to me and I was able to get an appointment) was the immediate positive impact it would have in granted me more individual freedoms. I wanted to fly to a job interview, go to my relative’s wedding, and go to the office and in-person social events at my new job. I could have done all but the last one without the vaccine, but the availability of testing wasn’t so reliable at that time, and I didn’t want to risk missing out.
If getting vaccinated wouldn’t have granted me those freedoms, if I still would have been living under lockdown for some indeterminate end point, and if I had a safety concern about the vaccine, I’m not sure I would have bothered.
That was kinda of my point – I didn’t explain it very well – but aside from the policy not doing much to incentivise vaccinations, people who aren’t getting vaccinated are costing other people here – the aircrew in particular – their freedoms. I refrained from getting bogged down in the numbers and particulars in terms of demographics, suffice to say that there is a large percent of people who should be vaccinated who are refusing to (ie not children). This is holding things up for the rest of us. But I was also hinting that not mandating vaccinations, given every other insane measure enacted here, might be something of a guise that allows them to do exactly that.
I appreciate your honest and open answer. I’m glad you did get vaccinated, regardless of reason. It goes to show that restricting freedoms does incentivise people to get vaccinated. Your point about Covid not going away and that everyone will get it at some point is something I actually agree with. There needs to be a reality check when it comes to certain policies and restrictions around the world (especially here in Hong Kong). That said, I firmly believe that getting vaccinated has a big effect. In very simple terms you are taking a risk either way. In very simple terms, the risk to yourself and others is far greater if you don’t get vaccinated. It almost certainly will help us get back to some sort of normality sooner because of this. It aids in building our collective immunity, reducing the chances of reinfection, hospitalisation and death. You might just have saved someone’s life by doing so too. That vaccination might just have made the difference. You never know.
Right. I wonder, if Hong Kong’s policy was “You can only get out of lockdown if you/your household are vaccinated (and we have strict systems for verifying and enforcing this), otherwise, you are stuck in lockdown while everyone else is free to do whatever”, if that would be more effective at increasing vaccination rates. The current policy as you described feels more like collective punishment for the people who are vaccinated.
To clarify, I don’t regret getting vaccinated. I wasn’t willing to lie about my eligibility in order to cut the line and get vaccinated sooner (the vaccine eligibility rollout in the USA is a whole other topic), but I’ve been fully vaccinated since May 2020. It’s just more that for me, personal freedom was a much stronger motivator than anything else.
No one is in lockdown here. At least not inside Hong Kong. We are in a kind of lockdown from the rest of the world because travel restrictions are so strict. But we haven’t had a case in months. Still we have increasingly strict rules regarding track and tracing. We have to scan an app to let the government know whenever we enter somewhere like a restaurant. The problem with enforcing a zero case policy here is it’s completely unrealistic. The reality is Covid will never go away. A big percent of those refusing to get vaccinated are the elderly. If we did have a breakout here it would rip them apart. Without mandating it for them it feels as though we are stuck in limbo.
Thanks for letting us know the reason you got vaccinated. I suspect the desire to move around and go to shops or restaurants should they restrict movements that way will encourage others to get vaccinated too.
Thanks for lending your thoughts. Wishing you well 🙏
I completely agree with you but I live in Texas where our governor would be better suited to a province in Afghanistan.
Yes, I suspect if a mandate that is applied across the country, it would be vetoed in many red states. It has become predictably political sadly. If only we could agree that the virus is the enemy, not each other. Thanks for taking the time to comment/read. Wishing you well 🙏
100% agree. You make a very important point that with freedom comes responsibly. So true. Thanks for putting this out there, AP2. Wishing you and your family well.
Thank you firefly. Some of the replies have made for rough reading, but I stand by my argument. I sincerely believe it would be the best course of action to protect peoples lives and freedoms. Wishing you and yours well too 🙏
What a great post. I agree with you, and I appreciate the comparisons you draw between not getting vaccinated and driving drunk, and vaccine mandates and seatbelt laws. I absolutely love the statement on freedom: “Many people mistake freedom for this idea that they can do whatever they like. But the paradox of freedom is that you must take responsibility for it, otherwise you lose it.” Thanks 👍
Thank you for taking the time to read and share your thoughts. It’s something of a controversial position to take. Many people feel very strongly against the idea. I believe it would save many lives. Yes freedom and responsibility are very much synonymous. Wishing you well ashjones93 🙏
Hello from the UK.
Thank you for your post. An interesting discussion.
As regards your post however you have overlooked one thing. You have assumed that vaccine actually have some benefit at all. This is not the case; let me explain.
I have had my fair share of vaccines. I used to think vaccines were of some use until, at 60 years of age last year, I researched properly. I changed my mind.
Covid 19 is the ‘flu, dressed up as a monster to scare people, re-branded if you will. This helps big pharma etc, control the populace and make more money.
The ‘flu is the internal toxicosis of the body, mainly via urea, partly due to metabolism of food and partly due to the many poisons in our environment which can and do enter our bodies in the air, food and water.
Injecting poisons such as via vaccines merely adds to the toxicosis problem. Vaccines have never been of any use, it is merely that constant and persistent ‘advertising’ persuaded people that they were of use. The various deaths and harm have been well-documented over the decades. It is being documented now.
It is all very straightforward. Vitamin D deficiency is the true pandemic due to indoor working and living away from the sunshine which, if we do the right thing things will give us vitamin D (free!). Big pharma etc. are not keen on free as they don’t make much money out of it.
Vaccines are neuro-toxins as are most big pharma drugs. Therefore they are at best pointless.
If your immune system is in good order, then by and large you will tolerate a poisonous vaccine. If weakened you will suffer various side effects. If your immune system is very poor you may die.
Boosting you immune system with vitamin D can go a long way to protecting you against the toxicosis, but vitamin C is very good as an anti-oxidant to help flush the toxins out of your system. By and large you should be able to gain your vitamins etc from good, untainted food. Highly processed foods will not help.
I have done much on Covid 19 etc., but should you be interested, here is my link to vaccines.
https://alphaandomegacloud.wordpress.com/v-is-for-vaccination/
This gives access to my main Covid 19 Summary and that gives access to the various other issues. This includes the Wuhan issue where the deceit all started.
Please note I do use humour as necessary on posts and pages to lighten the mood and help make the points.
Finally as regards your comment and I quote ‘I fail to see how administering free medical care in the form of vaccinations is a humans right issue.’ The fact is, it is not free; you will pay for it in the form of taxes and you have no choice.
But administering what is at best a pointless vaccine is certainly a human rights issue, as well as a responsibility issue. Do you want to be responsible for the possible harm and death caused by these vaccines, which is all they will do if they have anything in them at all. After all, how do we know what is in each vial?
Kind regards
Baldmichael Theresoluteprotector’sson